Important info on ROMs

[Cornellius]

The thing is that, roms are legal for those who owns the real cartridge. My copy of Zelda - A link to the past broke (can't save my game anymore, battery is messed up), so emulating it is the only way I'm able to play it. The problem is that nobody respect that rule.

It's like mp3s, I download a lot, but when I see that I'm listening to the same album for about 2 week, I say to myself: Hey, I like that album/band a lot !, and I buy the CD/songs.

 

[Soushkin]

The thing is that, roms are legal for those who owns the real cartridge. My copy of Zelda - A link to the past broke (can't save my game anymore, battery is messed up), so emulating it is the only way I'm able to play it. The problem is that nobody respect that rule.

Simply because there's no way they can actually verify if you own the actual cartridge or not. Unless they (police, or who ever) pay you a visit, but that just costs too much for them old games. It's more lucrative to go after the ones sharing Wii/DS/PS3/PSP/XBox360 games.

Over at CoolROM we received some complaint from www.theesa.com once that we had ESA protected ROMs up for download. They never mentioned any of the other ROMs, just the protected IPs. We took those down and that was it, the ESA never bothered us again.

So yes, if you stick to the "rules" you can host ROMs just fine. Once you got protected IPs (Super Mario Bros. for instance) up for download you can expect the ESA knocking on your door sooner or later.

 

[SparroHawc]

The thing is that, roms are legal for those who owns the real cartridge. My copy of Zelda - A link to the past broke (can't save my game anymore, battery is messed up), so emulating it is the only way I'm able to play it. The problem is that nobody respect that rule.

ROMs are legal for -you- to make if you have the means of dumping a backup. It is, according to the companies that have enough money to succeed at suing your butt, illegal to provide ROMs for all-and-sundry to download, especially if said company is currently distributing any form of the original game (such as through the Virtual Console). Also, if there is -any- encryption on the game cartridge/CD/what have you, the DMCA makes it ILLEGAL to bypass that encryption even if it's a Caesar cipher. By any method. It's illegal to record a DVD with a camcorder pointed at your TV screen because the DVD is encrypted.

I play ROMs, but I have no illusions about the legality of such. Hell, I started playing Zelda: LttP on the Wii via emulator recently, for exactly the same reason you gave, but I know it's not legal since I can purchase it for Virtual Console. The fact that I own the cartridge means exactly zilch; my cartridge is WELL past warranty. It broke, boohoo. I'm supposed to buy a replacement for it. I'm cheap and I don't want to, but I also know I'm using a less-than-legal method to get around it. I did not make that backup I am playing. Just because no one else knows that doesn't make it legal, it just makes it impossible to prove in a court of law.

And then there's the Mickey Mouse Rule. You cannot use a character that is currently under copyright. Sonic, Mario, Link, Samus, Kirby, all those characters cannot be duplicated in any fashion because they are owned wholly by their corporations. Just like how you can't legally draw a picture of Mickey Mouse and use it for your own gain unless it's for educational purposes or satire, you can't distribute a ROM of a game that contains a copyrighted character. This doesn't mean you'll actually get in trouble for it; litigation is expensive and has no guaranteed return. But it's still illegal.

I personally condone the playing of ROMs on emulators. It's the best way to experience old games outside of hunting down the original cartridge and a system that still works. I cannot suggest it as a -legal- pastime though.

 

[Cornellius]

Then again, I know some people who download roms because they can't find the game anywhere. If I was a game producer, instead of trying to find people downloading a game, let's say, Zelda - ALTTP, I'd re-release this game as a special edition or something like that. I applause Nintendo for the Virtual Console, really great idea. Plus, less electronic components (no physical cartridge), so less chance of game failures.

 

[SparroHawc]

I applause Nintendo for the Virtual Console, really great idea. Plus, less electronic components (no physical cartridge), so less chance of game failures.

Sweet mercy, yes. I've probably already blown $100 on VC games.

 

[Xeon3D]

Just stating a contradiction, that's all.

Dude, I know the music archives existed in that time. I didn't have anything to do with them, Death Adder did. My nostalgia, what I remember doing on the website, speaking on the forums, all of that never involved piracy.

If any companies that matter (Nintendo, SEGA, SNK, Hudson, Capcom, Konami, etc..) ever ask for Zophar to remove ROMs, you have full bragging rights (providing that there is proof of a request for removal)

I hope I never have to. Even if I'm totally against the idea of Zophar having ROMS. (Note that they're not even hosted here...)

Unfortunately, I didn't work 10 years ago because I was already an adult when I got into emulation and it sure as hell doesn't work now [

Didn't quite grab what you meant to say with this phrase. You trying to say that you're not a ROM Kiddie but instead a "ROM Adultie" ???

Also, Rule 45 dude !!!

Yeah, whatever rule 45 is.

-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs.

There are also a lot of Serial Killers over there that did kill some people 20 years ago and they're never been caught. Let's all turn into serial killers then!

 

[SparroHawc]

ROM Kiddiez !!! I haven't heard that one in years. Unfortunately, I didn't work 10 years ago because I was already an adult when I got into emulation and it sure as hell doesn't work now

Didn't quite grab what you meant to say with this phrase. You trying to say that you're not a ROM Kiddie but instead a "ROM Adultie" ???

Doesn't matter how old you are, if you ransack forums making posts asking "HOW DO I GET THIS ROM LOL" you are a ROM Kiddie. ...which, I think, was Xeon's point.

Yeah, whatever rule 45 is.

Actually, I want to know what rule 45 is too...

-Again, Planetemu.net has been hosting ROMs for the past 7 years and no big video game companies as EVER asked them to remove ROMs.

There are also a lot of Serial Killers over there that did kill some people 20 years ago and they're never been caught. Let's all turn into serial killers then!

Whoa, whoa there Xeon! Take a deep breath... You're going into flame mode. If you're going to get snarky at him, you ought to at least be subtle about it. For the most part, this has been a fairly calm and level-headed discussion (surprisingly). Let's keep it that way, mm?

Incidentally, Soushkin gave a good rebuttal to this comment already.

I wonder where you got that from. I'm from Holland and we can download movies and music as much as we desire. And it's actually legal too because we pay a fee on blank media.

One movie can get you 250k fine in the USA, same for music. Or three years in jail. No way we have such stupid sentences here to serve them dumbass companies.

France and England can be pretty harsh on downloading music and movies. They don't care much about them old games though, their police got better things to do than busting some ROMsites.

Again, it comes down to this... It's illegal to host commercial ROMs. There is a good chance that it is also illegal to host music rips from games, but there's no reason to suspect that anyone will come after ZD for hosting the music when it's such a fringe item. (Technically, hosting fanart on a page with ads is also illegal, but I don't see DeviantART complaining about cease-and-desist e-mails.) I, personally, have seen SEVERAL ROM sites go down due to legal activity, making hosting ROMs a high-risk activity. And I'm sorry, but pointing out one or two ROM sites that have survived so far isn't sufficient proof that it's sanctioned. The subdomain ROM hosting on ZD is plausible deniability; it will either go away or it will stay, and either way it shouldn't affect the main ZD site. Especially considering how the poll seems to be turning out.

 

[Xeon3D]

Doesn't matter how old you are, if you ransack forums making posts asking "HOW DO I GET THIS ROM LOL" you are a ROM Kiddie. ...which, I think, was Xeon's point.

Nope, I wasn't saying that he's a ROM Kiddie. Not in that way. It was more in the way of "ZD HAS TO HAVE ROMS!" since he's so supportive of it.

Actually, I want to know what rule 45 is too...

And the mistery continues...

Google results say that Rule 45 of your civil code is related to subpoenas and that rule 45 of the USA criminal code speaks about extending time?
And I thought google helped everytime...

Whoa, whoa there Xeon! Take a deep breath... You're going into flame mode. If you're going to get snarky at him, you ought to at least be subtle about it. For the most part, this has been a fairly calm and level-headed discussion (surprisingly). Let's keep it that way, mm?

Incidentally, Soushkin gave a good rebuttal to this comment already.

Hey, I'm cool. Actually I'm just replying for the fun of it, as I've got nothing funnier to do ATM. I was just trying to end that point. Since he said that "if they're doing it and are not getting caught why should we do it as well", I was just trying to prove that that way of thinking was wrong. Maybe the serial killer was a bit exaggerated but it was the first thing that came to mind.

Again, it comes down to this... It's illegal to host commercial ROMs.

Behold, for he speaks the truth!

There is a good chance that it is also illegal to host music rips from games, but there's no reason to suspect that anyone will come after ZD for hosting the music when it's such a fringe item. (Technically, hosting fanart on a page with ads is also illegal, but I don't see DeviantART complaining about cease-and-desist e-mails.)

It's illegal. The fact that we are or we aren't getting complaints about it doesn't change the legal or not level. There are legal things or illegal things, I have yet to see a (input percentage level here)% illegal thing.

I, personally, have seen SEVERAL ROM sites go down due to legal activity, making hosting ROMs a high-risk activity.

Oh, so did I... good old times those were. (and no, I'm not nostalgic this time, lol)

The subdomain ROM hosting on ZD is plausible deniability; it will either go away or it will stay, and either way it shouldn't affect the main ZD site. Especially considering how the poll seems to be turning out.

I don't really think we're hosting the ROMS. I think he's getting them from some other place. At least the roms aren't hosted on roms.zophar.net, they're on a xxx.yy.zzz.aaa (IP only) server, and I can't really bother to go check where it'll lead.

 

[the_importer]

Couple of things:

1- PlanetEmu and other sites aren't still Online because they haven't been caught, they're still Online because game companies don't give two fucks as long as they keep it old school (I'm sure that any of those sites start hosting NDS ROMs, they'll be shut down).

2- Rule 45
Anyone on the Internet going on record stating that they are against a form of piracy are pirates themselves.

If you're on the Internet and know about piracy, odds are that you do it in some way, shape or form such has illegal: Music, Movies, TV Shows, Anime, Softwares, PC Games, Console Games, ROMs, Operating Systems, etc...

These people could be defined as hypocrites for judging people on doing something that they do themselves. The only explanation of this behavior would be fear of getting caught or fear of judgment.


-Nintendo_Fanguy0007: Downloading Wii games is a crime, you shouldn't be doing this!!! They'll catch you and throw your ass in jail......

-Common_Sense_Guy8080: Rule 45 man!!! You're probably typing this on your PC with a cracked copy of Windows XP, listening to music downloaded via Lime Wire and watching bootlegged movies on your TV that you got via Bitorrent.

 

[SparroHawc]

Ahh, clarification! Thanks for defining the rule. (But why 45?)

It's getting a little off the topic, though - the question isn't whether or not Xeon3D has illegal roms, but whether or not Zophar's Domain should host illegal material.

I'm viewing it in my previous comment as a question of risk. ROMs themselves are high-risk; music rips are low-risk. They aren't no-risk, I will admit, and if they disappear I wouldn't cry about it. I'd miss them, but I wouldn't be heartbroken. The only legality issue in regards to the music isn't 'can we legally host these files?' because as Xeon pointed out, the definitive answer is no, it isn't legal. Instead, the question is 'will anyone get upset at us for hosting these files?' So far the answer seems to be no, but there is always the possibility this will change, and it isn't the sort of thing the ZD administrators should fight for as it isn't the main focus of the site.

 

[Rattlehead]

Same ol' song and dance, every post.

 

[cipher]

17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1)
"...computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

The only exemption this clause provides for is when circumventing copy protection systems to access materials for archival purposes. This has absolutely nothing to do with distributing copyrighted materials, which is illegal no matter how you slice it.

Cartridge-era games didn't even implement any 'copy protection systems' to be circumvented, so the whole point might be moot, but corporations can spin anything into gold if they try hard enough, so who knows.

AFAIK, it has never been illegal to create a backup of ROM data from a game cartridge.

 

[Xeon3D]

Couple of things:

1- PlanetEmu and other sites aren't still Online because they haven't been caught, they're still Online because game companies don't give two fucks as long as they keep it old school (I'm sure that any of those sites start hosting NDS ROMs, they'll be shut down).

We're not PlanetEmu. We're speaking about ZD here in case you didn't notice. Stop giving examples of other sites, or are you going to turn into a Serial killer as I've wrote in a previous post? You registered and 90% of your posts have been in this thread. Why the hell do want ZD to host roms so much? Go download them at PlanetEmu ffs.

2- Rule 45
Anyone on the Internet going on record stating that they are against a form of piracy are pirates themselves.

[...]

These people could be defined as hypocrites for judging people on doing something that they do themselves. The only explanation of this behavior would be fear of getting caught or fear of judgment.
[...]

Dude, tell me, where I have said that I didn't pirate, nor that I didn't have illegal ROMs... I was saying that I was against ZD distributing ROMs!

Example: I'm also against running a stripping club here where I live. But I wouldn't mind going to one.

Also, thanks for the clarification. I didn't think of searching Urbandictionary.

Ahh, clarification! Thanks for defining the rule. (But why 45?)

It's getting a little off the topic, though - the question isn't whether or not Xeon3D has illegal roms, but whether or not Zophar's Domain should host illegal material.

Yes, it seems it's turning to a personal attack.

I'm viewing it in my previous comment as a question of risk. ROMs themselves are high-risk; music rips are low-risk. They aren't no-risk, I will admit, and if they disappear I wouldn't cry about it. I'd miss them, but I wouldn't be heartbroken. The only legality issue in regards to the music isn't 'can we legally host these files?' because as Xeon pointed out, the definitive answer is no, it isn't legal. Instead, the question is 'will anyone get upset at us for hosting these files?' So far the answer seems to be no, but there is always the possibility this will change, and it isn't the sort of thing the ZD administrators should fight for as it isn't the main focus of the site.

Note: The main focus of the site was to be an Emulation Archive. And I really can't fit commercial roms distribution into the definition of Emulation Archive.

Same ol' song and dance, every post.

True.. True...

The only exemption this clause provides for is when circumventing copy protection systems to access materials for archival purposes. This has absolutely nothing to do with distributing copyrighted materials, which is illegal no matter how you slice it.

Cartridge-era games didn't even implement any 'copy protection systems' to be circumvented, so the whole point might be moot, but corporations can spin anything into gold if they try hard enough, so who knows.

AFAIK, it has never been illegal to create a backup of ROM data from a game cartridge.

Nope, as long as you did it yourself with your own tools for a game you own. It's called a backup copy, like you can make of a music CD.

Also, I'm gonna stop posting in this thread. It's not the first one that I've seen about this, nor it'll be the last. There will always be two opinions and none of the sides are willing to give up. I've made my point here and a few agreed with (at least most of) it, so I'm happy. ZD is still "hosting" commercial roms. That decision wasn't mine nor did I condone it. I wouldn't give a flying .... if X, Y or Z started distributing roms. I download some myself. I can't (or couldn't) see ZD distributing them. My problem is just that.

Watching a site that was once one of if not the most popular website about emulation in the true meaning of the word, which had a no-piracy rule and for which I was proud of being a part of, now getting mixed with the ROM sharing sites.

The following statement is a joke. ->
Also, I'll leave leaving a question in the air. I got a copy of No$GBA 2.6a (note, I don't use Windows/Wine in either way so I can't really use it), should I upload it? Maybe even make a newspost about it?<- Do not take the last statement seriously.

 

[The 9th Sage]

-Common_Sense_Guy8080: Rule 45 man!!! You're probably typing this on your PC with a cracked copy of Windows XP, listening to music downloaded via Lime Wire and watching bootlegged movies on your TV that you got via Bitorrent.[/i]

....but you are missing the fact that this is not relevant. It is still illegal. If you pirate, or not, you're fooling yourself if you think it's legal.

 

[The 9th Sage]

Jeez, nevermind. I can't read this thread anymore. It's getting painful and angsty.

 

[the_importer]

We're not PlanetEmu. We're speaking about ZD here in case you didn't notice. Stop giving examples of other sites, or are you going to turn into a Serial killer as I've wrote in a previous post? You registered and 90% of your posts have been in this thread. Why the hell do want ZD to host roms so much? Go download them at PlanetEmu ffs.

Again, you're missing the point. I couldn't care less if Zophar hosts ROMs or not, what I care is that you're still making it as bad as people did back in 1998. Things have change since then and even if Zophar doesn't host ROMs, it doesn't mean that it should compare the ROM scene to the same level as people who download NDS, PSP, Wii, PS3 and XBOX360 games. In case you weren't aware of it, the emulation scene kind of made a rule of thumb about 5 or 6 years ago that it wouldn't distribute games from systems that were still on the market and that it wouldn't host any games that were less than 4 years old. Many ROM sites follow this rule and I think it's quite honorable of them to do so.

Dude, tell me, where I have said that I didn't pirate, nor that I didn't have illegal ROMs... I was saying that I was against ZD distributing ROMs!

Hmm, let's see, does this sound familiar:

I'm done discussing this. I already made my point. You made yours. Do what you want to do. As if I fuckin care. ROM Kiddiez will always be ROM Kiddiez.

So either you called yourself a ROM Kiddy or Rule 45 made you spilled your guts

The following statement is a joke. ->
Also, I'll leave leaving a question in the air. I got a copy of No$GBA 2.6a (note, I don't use Windows/Wine in either way so I can't really use it), should I upload it? Maybe even make a newspost about it?<- Do not take the last statement seriously.

Knock yourself out, it's kind of crappy anyway, don't think many people would want to use it.

....but you are missing the fact that this is not relevant. It is still illegal. If you pirate, or not, you're fooling yourself if you think it's legal.

And I think you're missing some reading comprehension skills. Where did I ever mention that ROMs were legal? Only thing I stated is that there are different levels of piracy and that old school emulation falls into the bottom. If it wasn't, all of these ROM sites that have been around for years would be gone by now just like the ones that distribute current generation games.

 

[Umiliphus]

Maybe they are run by sorcerers!

 

[mushroom blue]

I am a member of "Generation Y". And I'm a pirate. This appears to be a culture that is quickly becoming mainstream, especially in America. You can get anything from the media in some bootleg way. Movies on DVD while they're in theater. Non-DRM MP3s from torrent files. Chiptunes. Video games ROMs. ISOs.

Lawrence Lessig had a wonderful TED Talk on exactly this subject. the synopsis is that my generation and your generation (and all successive generations) have been taught that they are going to break the law on a day-to-day basis. we do it with movies, music, television, video games, drugs, jaywalking, peeing in public, etc. it's one of the first signs of corporate facism. at least Portugal and Quebec have a reasonably fair version of benevolent facism implemented, where the only time it gets in your way is when you break one of the few laws. the facism in America seems to be run by those with the most money, at the cost of everyone else. laws are made to ensure revenue for a few, rather than ensure liberty for the many.

just remember: in a fully free-market, there are no copyright restrictions.

 

[the_importer]

Lawrence Lessig had a wonderful TED Talk on exactly this subject. the synopsis is that my generation and your generation (and all successive generations) have been taught that they are going to break the law on a day-to-day basis. we do it with movies, music, television, video games, drugs, jaywalking, peeing in public, etc. it's one of the first signs of corporate facism. at least Portugal and Quebec have a reasonably fair version of benevolent facism implemented, where the only time it gets in your way is when you break one of the few laws. the facism in America seems to be run by those with the most money, at the cost of everyone else. laws are made to ensure revenue for a few, rather than ensure liberty for the many.

just remember: in a fully free-market, there are no copyright restrictions.

The music industry claimed that it would die if the market allowed cassette recorders on the market. Did it happen? No

The TV stations once claimed that the BETA Max and VHS would kill TV if they were allowed to be on the market. Did it happen? No

Same shit was claimed about CD burner, DVD burners, MP3 players, etc...

Fact is, even old shit like News Papers, comic books and the Radio are still alive today, a form of media is just too hard to kill.

 

[Umiliphus]

You should lobby congress!