Illegal Immigration

[shawn]

Well I may be an independent and vote democrat but if they don't start getting this immigration problem under control I'm "shudder" voting republican.

I just did some figuring since I can't stop thinking when I get pissed about something. There are estimated 17 million illegal immigrants in this country which they estimate at 5% of the US population. Now the unemployment rate is at 10%. I guestimated that minus students that don't work, retired, children, welfare moms with young kids, and disabled people that is about 1/2 the population that actually works.

So that means that the 10% unemployment might be around the same number of ILLEGAL aliens in this country that are working under the table.

Now if you consider that these people don't pay taxes. Also that the average person out of work collects unemployment, welfare, food stamps, etc.

That means that in for every illegal in this country not only does not pay taxes but if those jobs were given to legal workers that pay taxes there would be
1. An increase in the tax base of billions
2. A decrease in government programs that these people are overwhelming at this time and adding many more billions than the above figure to the federal and many state budgets
3. Every person that pays taxes including me is paying several hundred dollars a year to not only support all these out of work citizens but also to makeup the taxes they used to pay that the illegals DON'T pay


Basically they are costing everyone that pays taxes money and I didn't let them so they are stealing from us. If they left unemployment would drop to less than 5% in my estimation in just a few months to a year and we could get back to a real economy. They need to leave one way or another.

My brother had a great idea. The illegals coming over from Mexico should be shipped home but to the southernmost part of Mexico and not just over the border and make them walk a 1,000 miles to get back to steal another job and help some bad employer commit tax evasion.

I think any employer should be given a $25,000 for each illegal they employ and jail time for multiple offenses since by not taking SSI or taking taxes out of their pay they are committing or at the least accessory to tax evasion and should be treated like the criminal they are.

No I am not a racist, I'm a cold hard realist that can do math and see that these people no matter what race including white/european are making my life harder and taking money out of my pocket.

If Obama does do a Clinton and gives them all amnesty then he may get the Latino vote but he'll loose many more independent voters which are the ones that put him in office.

I probably pissed some people off but I see Democratic Senators and Reps on TV saying Arizona's law which is basically the same as the unenforced federal law they are sworn to uphold but are ignoring for the most part it just makes my blood boil listening to these fucken hypocrites. :banghead:

 

[Reaper man]

Here's an idea. How about we make it easier for immigrants to get citizenship so that they wouldn't HAVE to come to the country illegally. Problem solved.

 

[shawn]

Here's an idea. How about we make it easier for immigrants to get citizenship so that they wouldn't HAVE to come to the country illegally. Problem solved.

You don't get it. I've seen what this country looked like 40 years ago with 1/4 of todays population. It was great. I don't want any immigration. Hell I think we need to do national population control like China and cut our population in 1/2. I really want a sign to all the world saying "We are full, go away, keep your poor, your sick, just go the fuck away and if you hate your country then don't run away like a pussy, FIX IT DUMBASS"

I'm sick of paying for us to be the policeman of the world, I'm sick of protecting pussies from a government that is made up of 1% of their population, and I'm sick of people coming here and just making taxes go up and make the country more crowded. I wish they would just stay the fuck home and be responsible like we have done for decades.

I am Irish and if the Irish started coming over by the million I would tell them the same thing, GO HOME NOW AND DON"T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE ASS ON THE WAY OUT.

That was not meant for you Brad but for everyone reading to see what a person that says he's independent but is more a centrist democrat feels about this. I'm pissed it's even a question since we have had laws for decades I think it's time not to just build a fucken climbing wall for the neighbors but to hire a 100,000 people and remove the problem one way or another.

I am not PC in any way when it comes to people costing me money even by increasing taxes and then it pisses me off because I work WAY to hard for some fencejumper to take it away and act like it's their right, FUCK THEM.

 

[Lillymon]

Well I may be an independent and vote democrat but if they don't start getting this immigration problem under control I'm "shudder" voting republican.

I just did some figuring since I can't stop thinking when I get pissed about something. There are estimated 17 million illegal immigrants in this country which they estimate at 5% of the US population. Now the unemployment rate is at 10%. I guestimated that minus students that don't work, retired, children, welfare moms with young kids, and disabled people that is about 1/2 the population that actually works.

So that means that the 10% unemployment might be around the same number of ILLEGAL aliens in this country that are working under the table.

I think you're scapegoating here. The unemployment rate in the US only hit 10% a few months back. Looking back, unemployment was as low as 4.5% just three years ago, with 4% being about as low as unemployment ever goes.

It seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room to blame illegal immigration when the amount of illegal immigrants has not changed that much in the last three years, but the sharp rise in unemployment does line up quite nicely with the fucknormous recession you just went through.

Now if you consider that these people don't pay taxes.

That's generally considered one of the arguments in favour of amnesty. Unless you know who they are and where they live, you can't really tax them at all.

That means that in for every illegal in this country not only does not pay taxes but if those jobs were given to legal workers that pay taxes

Assuming this is always possible is actually a fallacy.

I saw an interview here in Britain of an employer of foreign, non-union workers. He was asked what would happen if he was forced to employ native, union workers at the higher wages that they would inevitable demands. His response? Increase mechanization.

The foreign workers weren't being used as cheaper replacements for native workers, they were being used as cheaper replacements for machines. Their presence is the only reason why most jobs in the factory even existed.

Basically they are costing everyone that pays taxes money and I didn't let them so they are stealing from us. If they left unemployment would drop to less than 5% in my estimation in just a few months to a year and we could get back to a real economy.

To be blunt, your estimation is bullshit. You're not an economist, you don't have any proper understanding of how these issues work. Unemployment was less than 5% just a few years ago and we both know illegal immigrants have been in the United States for a very long time, so they could only ever be a small part of the problem.

My brother had a great idea. The illegals coming over from Mexico should be shipped home but to the southernmost part of Mexico and not just over the border and make them walk a 1,000 miles to get back to steal another job and help some bad employer commit tax evasion.

What's the point of this? It would never happen because it wouldn't do anything. If it did happen, you'd feel good for about five minutes then realize you've spent a load of money to do nothing of consequence.

I think any employer should be given a $25,000 for each illegal they employ and jail time for multiple offenses since by not taking SSI or taking taxes out of their pay they are committing or at the least accessory to tax evasion and should be treated like the criminal they are.

What's the current punishment? This sounds fairly similar to what we do in Britain, but we still have the same old problem. Illegal immigrants are useful enough to employers that they just gamble that they won't be caught, and they usually aren't. The immigrants get treated like shit, citizens still lose their jobs, and businessmen make a load more money.

No I am not a racist, I'm a cold hard realist that can do math and see that these people no matter what race including white/european are making my life harder and taking money out of my pocket.

You're just an average man who is angry about high unemployment because the economy is ruined and is looking for someone to blame. You've been handily redirected to the illegal immigrants and have somehow forgot that unemployment is so high entirely because of the recession that tore through the economy, which was caused by the drying up of cheap credit, which was caused by the ceasing of bank-to-bank lending, which was caused by the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

How does anger manage to get redirected so easily?

 

[shawn]

I've actually been pissed about the illegal immigration problem for a long time now. My town sucks now. We first took the Cambodians, then the Bosnians, then the Nigerians, etc, etc. They were all dirt poor. They all needed jobs. They all needed apartments.

Now my town which was comfortably small is a city. It's dirty, it's turning into crap, the prices of apartments has tripled because of demand, the factories all moved because immigrants don't own homes but sure can pop out the babies left and right. The welfare rate has been high for a long time and the unemployment rate has been rising for decades and it's not going to end until NH tell the Fed to suck it and send them to some other state.

As for being fed up I do read the BBC comments area and I sometimes read Mail Online out of the UK and I find the average commenter is pissed in your country. Hell I've read a few articles where people from all over Europe are fed up with the millions of immigrants moving in and in the case of some parts of Britain overwhelming the local workforces with immigrants that will work for almost nothing.

Now it's time for Americans to tell the politicians that they better realize that if 70% of a state thinks Illegal immigrants are a problem and need to leave it's time for them to do their job that is a law already in the books and either support their efforts or get off their butts and do what they say is their responsibility. As far as I know a responsibility is a required job/task and not a reason to say that's my responsibility so stop doing what I'm ignoring for political reasons.

As for this Latino culture reason for wanting them to stay I hear on the news way to often I think if they want a Latino culture then move to a Latino country. If they became Americans and have pride in America then quit trying to turn America into Mexico.

 

[The 9th Sage]

Shawn...if the unemployment is the fault of illegal immigrants, then why hasn't it ALWAYS been that high? You surely realize that the US is pretty much built on immigration. The ancestors of most of us were in fact immigrants.

Anyway, that's not my point...my point is that I'd be a bit surprised if immigration had changed much as of recently (that is to say, made some kind of massive, giant leap). If you have an actual fact to the contrary of this though, feel free to share it. A lot of what you've talked about is pretty much conjecture, no offense or anything. You pulled a lot of figures with no source other than your opinion.

Also...you shouldn't discount what Brad says without thinking about it. It would make it more difficult for contractors and such to higher immigrants illegaly (and for low wages) if they...you know...weren't illegal.

 

[Lillymon]

Shawn...if the unemployment is the fault of illegal immigrants, then why hasn't it ALWAYS been that high?

I feel compelled to post this inline now:

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics

Unemployment maps quite nicely to the little recession of the early 2000s and the big recession of the late 2000s, otherwise it's really very low despite illegal immigration happening in large numbers all across the decade.

You surely realize that the US is pretty much built on immigration. The ancestors of most of us were in fact immigrants.

Shawn admits as much above, but his ancestors were different and shouldn't have been turned back to try and make their own country better because... umm...

Also...you shouldn't discount what Brad says without thinking about it. It would make it more difficult for contractors and such to higher immigrants illegaly (and for low wages) if they...you know...weren't illegal.

This is a good point. Illegal immigrants can be paid next to nothing because they can't complain to any authorities, because they're illegal immigrants, so they just have to live with dirt poor wages.

Come to think of it, Shawn complains about his city turning to crap due to all of the immigrants, the symptoms he describes sounding a lot like what happens when there's a lot of urban poverty. Which has occurred because of the illegal immigrants, who are poor because they work for next to nothing, which they're able to do because they're paid under the table, which can be done because the authorities don't know when and where this is happening, because there's no sensible path to citizenship for them!

You can't just deport them for the same reason. Where are they? How many are there? All you have is estimates, no hard figures and certainly no handy fucking addresses to go looking for them in. Then if you find them, now what? What if they have no passport (a very common problem with illegal immigrants in the UK)? You can't just throw them into Mexico, because the Mexican government is going to want proof that this person is actually their problem to deal with. All the illegal immigrant has to do is stay silent, and no country will take them. Now what? Want to throw a few million in jail and pay thousands of dollars a year to keep them clothed and fed? Of course you fucking don't, you let them go, and they just go back to making your city yet more of a shithole.

This is a problem with no easy solutions, but also no shortage of people willing to say there are, and certainly no shortage of angry mobs willing to believe them.

 

[shawn]

OK that graph makes unemployment seem low but in fact it does not take into effect the people that have given up looking and are not even counted. They are actually ignored to make politicians seem like they are doing a great job. Since about 2000 unemployment "nafta/gatt" has been understated by 7 - 10% but the government can't easily measure it. This graph is actually people that are ON unemployment. It doesn't account for people that have used up their unemployment or that were fired or quit their jobs and never found new employment. The actually unemployment rate is estimated at 17% plus and even over 20% in certain area's of the country.

Sure this country was founded and built by immigrants. It was also fairly roomy at that time also with huge area's of undeveloped land. That though now is a moot point because we don't have vast area's of land that can or better yet should be developed. We have more than enough people here and actually could use some good old population control. If the government won't do that then just tell people if you have no worked for at least 5 years at a job that pays taxes you cannot collect welfare at all. I think we should also fully fund abortion for ANYONE that wants it. As before I also believe we should remove ALL illegals and get rid of most green cards and stop the H1 visa's and just stop immigration altogether until we lower our present population,and stop letting non citizens use our college system if their is one American that has applied first since our taxes suppliment schools.

This isn't about tradition, compassion, or we are the world emotional crap since the US is a sovereign state. This is about cash, standard of living, natural resources, and even government spending which would all be lower without these people.

I saw yesterday some guy ON TV from I believe he said Peru that has been going to college in the US for years and working the whole time. That means that he has been taking a college seat that are expensive because of demand and almost all college are given some kind of government money and also working without paying taxes. He was a protester in LA. As for that guy on TV. The US border patrol should have after seeing that surrounded that protest and LEGALLY asked EVERYONE there for ID and not let anyone leave without proving themselves a US citizen. Since the US border patrol CAN and better yet SHOULD follow the law this would have made my day. I bet over 1/2 the people there were illegal. I would have been ROTFLMAO.

Maybe it's time all landlords and colleges are required to make sure someone is not an illegal alien. That would slow down the problem. Hell I'm getting to the point of wanting to let them be shot while climbing over the fence and not wounded, but dead. They are just thieves in my eyes and when I was growing up you didn't call the police for thieves, you shot then then called the police and that was that. No massive investigation. It was shooting someone being somewhere they shouldn't be, on YOUR land.

This country is becoming land of the pussies and not the brave. We call stupid drunks alcoholics, we think it's fine that women pop out kids and throw welfare money at them instead of telling them to quit fucking like a whore, and we don't even spank kids anymore even when they absolutely need it. Hell there are times I've seen welfare bitches with unruly kids and wanted to walk up and slap them and the kids and say "that's how you do it bitch, now quit being a lazy whore and fucken raise your fucken kids right you stupid bitch!".

You see I have very strong views on most subjects and not just a bunch of people jumping the fence. Hell if they started shooting them I wouldn't complain. I might even send them an email saying good job. Sure would send a message to all fence jumpers. If the Mexican government said anything then I'd tell them that it wouldn't happen if you actually enforced your side of the border but they don't seem to use actual logic in the Mexican government since their President seems about as smart as Bush.

Hell I think we ought to just get rid of NAFTA and dismantle the Mexican factories or better yet a law saying if a US company builds a plant in another country including Mexico they CANNOT send the goods back to the US only to other countries, no "as the government calls it" REPATRIATING of goods. I kind of hate Mexico since we already sent them a shitload of American jobs by building those factories there and closing an equal number in the US and they still jump the border because their government and business leaders are so corrupt and they are to lazy, stupid, or just pussies to do something about it. It's time to look out for number 1 and that's the US and the US taxpayers and fuck everyone else.

 

[The 9th Sage]

Dude....again, where on Earth are you getting your figures from? I want to know, because I could say anything right now and claim it was absolutely right, but it wouldn't neccesarily BE right.

Also...I'm not weighing in on Welfare, but let's say that you take away welfare completely after a time (which seems to be what you're suggesting). What then? They end up out on the street (I mean, if you can't pay to live somewhere, you have to end up in a shelter or on the street or something)? That hardly seems like a good solution.

Also (once again )...are you seriously suggesting that we just start shooting people? I'd have hoped you'd see what was wrong with that. Hell, why don't we just start shooting all the people without jobs who are either on unemployment or welfare? I mean, gosh, they aren't working, so the government isn't getting money from taxing their wages, right? If we shoot them then we don't have to spend money on 'em anymore. Going by your logic, that seems like the next logical step. >_<

This is a problem with no easy solutions, but also no shortage of people willing to say there are, and certainly no shortage of angry mobs willing to believe them.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

[shawn]

I just consider illegal immigrants thieves and if you catch a thief taking your shit you shoot them and they steal jobs. They also since they need everything we do raise demand and when you raise demand as everyone knows the price rises.

I got the 17 million figure and 5% of the population from CNN that got that from the governments latest figures. I thought everyone knew that the unemployment figure was way low and the government only used the rate they used since it's easy just to have every state report how many people were collecting unemployment at a regular basic to get an exact figure.

The department of labor statistics freely admits the figure is much lower than the actually unemployment rate.

For welfare. If you have ever hung out regularly with people on welfare you will know that they will actually since their are no food stamps anymore go in and buy you food and take half of what it's worth for cigarette money or drug money etc.
In my town probably half of the people on welfare/housing have someone living there illegally that is working. It's usually someone paying them to stay there or even someone they are fucking or even the father of their kids that is supposedly gone or at least that is what they tell Welfare. The girl that used to live upstairs had "get this" 4 guys living on her living room floor for $10 each per night. Welfare paid her rent of $165 per week and her electricity and she collected $280 per week letting these guys stay there totally illegally just because she had a kid and btw she was an ex heroin addict with herpes and genital warts. A real piece of work. I'm pretty sure she used to be a whore to but the herpes sore and emotionally messed up kid I'm sure put a quick end to that.

Hell I was watching that show Ganglands one night on TV and they were following M13 "mexican mafia" and I couldn't figure out for the life of me why they couldn't just line these fucks up against a wall and just shoot them all. Seriously. If a town gets gangs like this most countries would consider it since it's basically domestic terrorism pure and simple and sometimes I think maybe if the police won't maybe it's time for people to just buy sniper rifles and go wild wild west on these assholes. Sure would make joining a gang which is retarded in the first place a lot lot less likely to happen and would lower the crime rates from gangs real quickly.

I guess it basically comes down to I'm sick of being responsible and having people on Welfare or from Mexico or anyone else for that matter make my taxes hirer just to make their life better and as a result make mine a little more expensive as a result. I've been busting my ass working since I was 14 "went to school also" and then others try to get a free ride or just take a job that someone on unemployment needs and they stay on raising the US budget. It's immoral and it just makes me have to work harder just to keep my head above water.

This country is fucked up now and needs fixing.

 

[The 9th Sage]

Eh, nevermind. I'm kind of growing sick of this. You have a bad habit of taking one bad thing you know of (for example, that welfare lady) and extrapolating that out to mean everyone who is doing X is exactly like this person. Besides, you're kinda ignoring the ideas I was trying to talk about anyway. It seems less like you want to debate it, and more like you want to yell about how you're pissed off in general.

 

[schmocke]

Some thoughts on this. Since English isn´t my native language I cant´t argue for my oppinions very accurately.
To make illegal immigrants responsible for everything one´s pissed off is so easy and a well known way to detract from the real problems.
The same arguments appears in all western countries, where immigration is a subject.
I think it results from the fact, that the "rich countries" want to gain even more profit out of the "poor countries", although we have enough resources for everyone on our little planet. I know, my attitude is very idealstic not to say utopian but think about it. If e.g. every African has enough to eat - why should he come to Europe or the U.S.!? And that´s a point - there are millions (even more) of people on earth, who have no food and/or clean water. And you talk about taxes, stealing your money and so on.. That´s sad and scrubby in my point of view.

 

[The 9th Sage]

There's definitely something to that. I mean, if life where you're at is perfect, then you wouldn't have much of a reason to move to somewhere else.

 

[shawn]

there are millions (even more) of people on earth, who have no food and/or clean water.

Ok now there are as you said millions of people in an areas that are known to be desert areas. They had to keep reproducing to get numbers that large. Now why is it the responsibility of my country to do anything for them.

It seem a massive birth control program like in China would be the appropriate response instead of having them overpopulate other countries. Sure we fucked up sending more and more food to them basically signaling to them they were fine and could keep having large families but like in the US when having 6 10 or even 15 kids was fine we ALL have to face the fact the planets full and they need to take personal responsibility.

If we keep sustaining the fantasy that it's fine to have as many kids as you want because your religion/god will sustain you has to go.

Sorry but I chose not to reproduce since I didn't want the responsibility and didn't think I would have a life or my children would besides total poverty seeing the state of the world around me. Now I work hard for what I have and take pride in that. Now if everyone in the world that didn't have a job or lived in an area that cannot sustain the local population "the US falls into that category once you remove oil imports" then having kids or moving to another to start a family is immoral to do to the people in the new country.

People need to get their own houses in order which means not doing the selfish act of having kids when their are no job or people starving around you.

I find that lack of jobs, lack of fuel, starvation, etc can all be solved with population control and are just basically given to another country with emigration.

I just saw that the bomber in NY is Pakistani American. Gee what a surprise it was a Muslim immigrant that puts his religion or place of birth above the country that supports him, feeds him, employs him. Now that's gratitude "sarcasm" and another reason to end immigration.

 

[schmocke]

Nah, come on - I undestood your point. But immigration is only a result of a bunch of issues. One is, that we, with our houses, jobs, cars - our comfort and extravegance in general insist on our so called "rights".
We whine on a very high level. Overpopulation in less developed countries results, among other things from not knowing anything about contraception and/or no knowledge about medical contexts.
And yes, so called "great Nations" like U.S. have to feed the poors - that´s their fucking duty when I read such nonsense like not lower the prices for medicine for poor countries, because doing that would damage the free economy market..
You see, its a bunch of things that lead to immigration. It´s not the immigrants who caused your rage!

 

[shawn]

We don't have any duty. We do it out of compassion but I find charity starts at home and feeding and housing our poor should come before helping out the poor in other countries, nor letting them come here to avoid problems brought on by lack of responsibility by them or their government.

 

[schmocke]

You´re right, charity starts direct in your neighborhood. What I meant was that our goverment´s duty is to feed the less developed countries, which they rip off for our contentment.

 

[Maximum Potion]

Honestly, you have to realise that a lot of countries are pretty bad places to live. There are wars, poverty, and disease all over, and rulers who have no interest in their people's well being. People can't just ''go and make their countries better'', because the people who need change in their countries are in no position to do so. You were lucky to be born in a nice country where you can get cool things like food and shelter, so be grateful of what you have and stop being a dick to people who just want to have a good life.

This looks like blind hatred that is being directed at people trying to live well when it should be directed at the fucks who hire illegal immigrants to work for almost nothing. There wouldn't be so much poverty if they were paid well.

 

[shawn]

This looks like blind hatred that is being directed at people trying to live well when it should be directed at the fucks who hire illegal immigrants to work for almost nothing. There wouldn't be so much poverty if they were paid well.

Now I can agree with this as long as it was absolutely enforced. I remember a few years back a US rep was caught hiring an illegal housekeeper and gardener and he just paid off the taxes and ssi and got off besides that with nothing at all.

Maybe if they did huge fines like I stated in an earlier reply like $25,000 per and mandatory jail time for repeat offenders that would put a stop to the problem.

 

[The 9th Sage]

I just saw that the bomber in NY is Pakistani American. Gee what a surprise it was a Muslim immigrant that puts his religion or place of birth above the country that supports him, feeds him, employs him. Now that's gratitude "sarcasm" and another reason to end immigration.

Yeah I know, he's muslim, so he's a terrorist right? Good lord man, get a grip. Yes, he was a terrorist, but it's idiotic to think someone is a terrorist solely because of their race/religon/ethnicity.

I suppose you think Ted Kaczynski (for example) is a muslim too eh? On top of that, it has nothing to even do with what you're talking about since he's an American citizen.